Comments on Same Ole' Different Day: Out Of Iraq?

I'm an American who lives in Greece and although I...

2005-12-18T01:46:00.000-08:00

I'm an American who lives in Greece and although I'm a regisered moderate democrat, all these negative anti-Bush, anti-American comments I hear daily from the Greek media and Greeks, make me almost ready to vote REPUBLICAN just to spite them.

What these silly foreigners don't realize is that AMERICANS as a rule are not like the spineless SPANISH who bail at the first sign of attack, and we will stick by our country and President in a time of war.

God Bless America

You know, just over a week ago hidden documents th...

2005-11-28T12:22:00.000-08:00

You know, just over a week ago hidden documents that were allowed to be released showed that the Tonkin Affair that Pres. Johnson used as an excuse to send over 50,000 American soldiers to their deaths in Viet Nam were falsified...the fact that American ships were attacked was untrue...so now America and the world has been informed over 50,000 soldiers died for NOTHING.

Now.....the Pentagon uses over 2000 deaths of our military personnel in Iraq as the "numbers game"(and it is actually well over 15,000 dead Americans since they don't count any of you who die after being air lifted out of Iraq)... guy in Germany who makes the metal containers for your flights home has already delivered over 10,000 as of LAST YEAR and only makes them "per order"..... for MORE LIES.......the bottom line "war is money" and we Americans are nothing more than a bother to the Cheneys, Bush, Rumsfields, et al of the world and fertilizer for their growing off shore bank accounts.

Wondering why there's no money for the vets when they get home? Take a flight to the Cayman's and you can get their autographs in person.

All these men sent you to war...yet look at what t...

2005-11-28T12:02:00.000-08:00

All these men sent you to war...yet look at what they said when our nation was trying to stop an active genocide...the only problem for them at that time is that there was no money in it for them or their cronies -- your lives mean nothing to these men:

"Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is." ---Governor George W. Bush (R-TX)

VERBATIM QUOTES FROM WHEN CLINTON WAS COMMITTING TROOPS TO BOSNIA to prevent genocide:

"You can support the troops but not the president."
---Rep Tom Delay (R-TX)

"Well, I just think it's a bad idea. What's going to happen is they're going to be over there for 10, 15, maybe 20 years."
---Joe Scarborough (R-FL)

"Explain to the mothers and fathers of American servicemen that may come home in body bags why their son or daughter have to give up their life?"
---Sean Hannity, Fox News, 4/6/99

"Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is."
---Governor George W. Bush (R-TX)

"[The] President . . . is once again releasing American military might on a foreign country with an ill-defined objective and no exit strategy. He has yet to tell the Congress how much this operation will cost. And he has not informed our nation's armed forces about how long they will be away from home. These strikes do not make for a sound foreign policy."
---Sen. Rick Santorum (R-PA)

"American foreign policy is now one huge big mystery. Simply put, the
administration is trying to lead the world with a feel-good foreign policy."
---Rep Tom Delay (R-TX)

"If we are going to commit American troops, we must be certain they have a clear mission, an achievable goal and an exit strategy."
---Karen Hughes, speaking on behalf of George W Bush

"I had doubts about the bombing campaign from the beginning . . I didn't think we had done enough in the diplomatic area."
---Senator Trent Lott (R-MS)

"I cannot support a failed foreign policy. History teaches us that it is often easier to make war than peace. This administration is just learning that lesson right now. The President began this mission with very vague objectives and lots of unanswered questions. A month later, these questions are still unanswered. There are no clarified rules of engagement. There is no timetable. There is no legitimate definition of victory. There is no contingency plan for mission creep. There is no clear funding program. There is no agenda to bolster our over-extended military. There is no explanation defining what vital national interests are at stake. There was no strategic plan for war when the President started this thing, and there still is no plan today" Tom Delay (R-TX)

It would behoove the American sheeple to see the n...

2005-11-28T10:45:00.000-08:00

It would behoove the American sheeple to see the news from other nations that DO show what is really going on...that includes your blog.

CNN News around the world is not censored like it is in the United States. THEY show what you are doing yet in America, NOTHING.

Hope you remember to bring home some of that freedom and democracy when you get back to the US!

Anonymous 2:52 is a coward.

2005-11-26T23:05:00.000-08:00

Anonymous 2:52 is a coward.

PS anonymousReading a thick history book is not ne...

2005-11-22T09:43:00.000-08:00

PS anonymous
Reading a thick history book is not neccesary to understand human nature. Men like Saddam and Stalin do not wake up one day and say, "I think I'll make a career change today." Their violence is met with greater violence, bringing peace.
Perhaps you're right, the Iraqi's were probably not discussing democracy before 2003, any more than Soviet's were in 1957. This could get you killed- or worse.
However- Kurdistan has been a democracy for 10 years- because we established a no-fly zone- through violence.
For the record, I am not "Neo-Con" in the sense that I believe the U.S. has a mandate to spread democracy.
We took out an evil man who we believed to have WMD. I still believe they were trucked across the border to Syria- I know many men who will testify that they saw it on the radar in 2003. Whatever the case, taking Saddam out left a vacuum, which Zarqawi is trying to exploit, and we must stay the course
A) So as not to leave instability
B) Because we owe it to the Iraqi people.
I helped get Bush elected (in my own small way) but I would not support more military action in other countries until Afghanistan and Iraq are finished, and that only if we determine that countries are allowing terrorist training camps in their backyards.
And that only after diplomatic ends are exhausted.
I also do not support his border policies, the closing of military bases, and further tax cuts at a time when we are at war.
I also think that his Public Relations team has failed him miserably- I am thankful that he is fighting back now, but bloggers, milbloggers, and AM talk radio has been shouldering the counter-disinformation movement for 2 years.
As far as Presidents go, I think history will judge George W. a great president, if a succesful democracy is established in Iraq, and Islamic Fascism is rejected.
But that's not why I am "unquestionably pro-war in Iraq." I am pro war in Iraq without question because there is only one way out- to go through the middle of this and finish the job.
One year sounds great to me.
I have never opposed a "timetable for return." I think that setting goals is great. I oppose the press release of this information.
Al Qaeda watches CNN, you know.
Nice exchanging ideas with you.

The communique — finalized by Shiite, Kurdish and ...

2005-11-22T09:15:00.000-08:00

The communique — finalized by Shiite, Kurdish and Sunni leaders Monday — condemned terrorism but was a clear acknowledgment of the Sunni position that insurgents should not be labeled as terrorists if their operations do not target innocent civilians or institutions designed to provide for the welfare of Iraqi citizens.,

This actually shows progress. They are working together. Sounds like the grass roots of democracy to me.
PS. In nearly every report I have read where things are blown up Iraqi's take the most losses. In essence what they are calling for is an end to everything except IED's. This is also good news.

David: Save me the trouble of reading through anot...

2005-11-22T06:03:00.000-08:00

David: Save me the trouble of reading through another refutation of your comment on wanting to leave Iraq a hero and not a "cut and run coward." If the comments were meant in any other fashion it's patently obvious you have the skills to do so. Stop trying to revise and extend your remarks, it's unbecoming someone intelligent enough to have a background of some kind in engineering.

You call me a "bigot" when you make the following statement...
" But as usual... the liberal is twisting things around so as to create a negative reflection of his own cold black heart."
One could easily substitute African-American/black, Jew, or any other group. For someone who claims to be fighting for all of us back home, you seem awfully willing to dismiss almost 70% of the population that now wants to see US troops withdraw from Iraq as soon as possible. Your remark was quite the example of transference and leads me to claim, not too willingly, that you are disgrace to the uniform you wear. I don't dismiss your arguments because they are "conservative" but you seem to take your calls from something approaching the modern "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" playbook when you so willingly claim what "the liberal" does, when it is painfully obvious you don't know much about the liberalism that led to the founding of the republic whose uniform you wre wearing.

Rightfielder: It is no more a common liberal tacti...

2005-11-22T05:47:00.000-08:00

Rightfielder: It is no more a common liberal tactic to "bypass the argument and ridicule the source than it is for republicans to dismiss nonpartisan CBO estimates on the impact of huge budget deficits when they're in power, while highlighting CBO figures when Democrats are in power. My point is that depending on something like Wikipedia for answers concerning the promulgation of European democracies post-World War's is like depending on "Nuclear Fission for Dummies" during a meltdown. If you are truly interested in learning more about a fascinating period of history I would be happy to reccomend a number of books on the subject.

From what I know of the history of Iraq, there has never been an internal discussion on democracy. How Saddam succeeded so briliantly, despite his being a wretch of a human being, is that HE succeeded in keeping the three major tribal factions in Iraq, who would gladly kill each other if given the chance, seperated in various parts of the country. That was, in a very boiled down version, how he was able to consolidate power. What NOW united Iraqis, across the tribal spectrum, is there desire to be rid of American and foreign troops. What the US is stupidly trying to do is install an American-form of democracy on Iraq when they are clearly not ready for it. If Iraq were to democratically vote on becoming an Islamo-Fascist state, that would not be an acceptable outcome for the Bush administration, but actually would represent the views of the majority of Iraqis.

Despite the cultish Bush worship that seems to be going on in this blog, it was widely reported last night:

Reaching out to the Sunni Arab community, Iraqi leaders called for a timetable for the withdrawal of U.S.-led forces and said Iraq's opposition had a "legitimate right" of resistance.

The communique — finalized by Shiite, Kurdish and Sunni leaders Monday — condemned terrorism but was a clear acknowledgment of the Sunni position that insurgents should not be labeled as terrorists if their operations do not target innocent civilians or institutions designed to provide for the welfare of Iraqi citizens.

The leaders agreed on "calling for the withdrawal of foreign troops according to a timetable, through putting in place an immediate national program to rebuild the armed forces ... control the borders and the security situation" and end terror attacks.

The preparatory reconciliation conference, held under the auspices of the Arab League, was attended by Iraqi President Jalal Talabani and Iraqi Shiite and Kurdish lawmakers as well as leading Sunni politicians.

Now, if that's not a complete repudiation of the propaganda I've been reading here for the last couple of days I don't know what is. A lot of folks have been dismissing Congressman Murtha as a traitor when essentially the Iraqi "government" (or what passes for it) is now calling for a timetable for withdrawl AND claiming the insurgency is not only about terror is what they are seeking is a "legitimate right of resistance." Makes one wonder what David, who seems incapable of independent thought, think about his much-wished for "hero status."

BTW, I had not heard insurgent ever used as "insurging," and I rather like it.

I'm not debating the number of Iraqi troops of police with you. I don't know the exact figures but am willing to accept your figures. However, the number does not equal experienced and it should be common knowledge that the loyalty of many of them could be called into question. It was especially disappointing to learn that a prison has been set-up in Baghdad, by Iraqis (perhaps some of the police and trained soldiers you mentioned), for the sole use of torturing detaines.

I don't doubt that many Iraqis want to be "free" but it depends on how you use the definition of the word. As I said before, technically the people of Eqypt, Afghanistan, and other Arab countries are "free" to elect their respective Presidents, but that right doesn't necessarily translate into freedom for the population as measured by any modern definition: civil rights, trial by jury, protection against unreasonable search and seizure, ad nauseum.

Thanks for the interesting comments and thoughtful discussion, without the use of invective, to dismiss someone you are obviously incapable of having an intelligent discussion with. If I wanted talking points on the war, I could download the WH press briefing on a daily basis, but it's interesting to get another perspective to gauge the veracity of my own thoughts and opinions. I appreciate your POV.

Anonymous,So you are a Vietnam Vet?Where did you s...

2005-11-21T15:00:00.000-08:00

Anonymous,
So you are a Vietnam Vet?
Where did you serve?
What was your rank?
You wrote

I protested this war before it started & travelled 200 miles to do so in Austin. With me were OTHER VIET NAM VETERANAS -- SOME WHO WERE IN WHEELCHAIRS AND SOME WHO HAD LOST ARMS AND LEGS IN VIET NAME --- AND I DARE ANYONE TO CALL THEM COWARDS!!!!!!!!!

That is the whole reason that we must stay. Liberals and politicians hamstrung our troops in Vietnam by not allowing them to kick but and finish the job. The Vietnam war was a worthy cause.
The Soviets poured money into Vietnam, and again into Afghanistan. They went broke, and the Cold War was over.
One major difference between Vietnam and now is that these men serving volunteered! There was no draft!

I talked with 2 soldiers just back from Iraq last ...

2005-11-21T14:52:00.001-08:00

I talked with 2 soldiers just back from Iraq last Friday & they agree that the time to withdraw is NOW!

We can see that the # of casualities has not decreased in recent months & the # of explosions has not lessened.

What will we accomplish by staying another year? Just more soldiers dead, or seriously wounded.

We are still going to turn the country over to radical Shiite Muslims either way.

I protested this war before it started & travelled 200 miles to do so in Austin. With me were OTHER VIET NAM VETERANAS -- SOME WHO WERE IN WHEELCHAIRS AND SOME WHO HAD LOST ARMS AND LEGS IN VIET NAME --- AND I DARE ANYONE TO CALL THEM COWARDS!!!!!!!!!

AND THEY HAVE THE FREE SPEECH RIGHT TO SAY THEY BELIEVE THIS WAR IS WRONG.

And I continue to still protest with them today.

In fact, I may go to Crawford in 2 days to protest again.

I love our servicemen too much not to fight to bring them home.

Anonymous; Don't like wikipedia? Why not? It is ...

2005-11-21T14:52:00.000-08:00

Anonymous;
Don't like wikipedia? Why not? It is a common liberal tactic to bypass the argument and ridicule the source. Obviously you agree with the content of the Wikipedia quote, since you didn;t attempt to refute it.
What does Google have to do with it? It's just an online search engine, filled with facts and fables. The premises and conclusions can be debated independently of the source.
Now to your argument.
So what you are saying is not that freedom and democracy cannot be obtained through a gun (as it has been for 200 years) rather- that democracy cannot be imposed from outside upon a culture that does not want it. To that I would agree. But that does not describe Iraq.
First of all, the people wanted to be free. Oh sure, there are some of Saddam's loyalists that are upset. Yes, and some Sunni's are "in-surging" because they are confused about American occupation. What do you expect in a country where AK 47's are as common as cigarettes?
Try dropping that much firepower in New Orleans or L.A. and you would have a much worse result.
Bottom line - people want to be free. Saddam was an evil dictator, and most Iraqi's are happy to be free. The Kurds say "thank you America."

http://www.theotheriraq.com/

Iraqi's blogging from Iraq are happy with their freedom

http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/2003/11/im-not-gonna-give-this-title-this.html

Even those who have lost friends and loved ones.
Man, in the depth of his soul, desires to be free. You as a liberal should know that. Just let us Right Wingers impose upon gay rights or abortion and WHAM! Freedom! Equal rights! All of us want it.
Second, you make it sound like WE are the only ones fighting. Iraqi forces have 200,000 trained. We have 160,000 men there. They actually have more troops and police on the ground than we do.
Actually, when you think about it, Saddam imposed fascim on them by the gun, and Zarqawi is trying to do the same thing. So they are not accepting democracy by force, rather they are rejecting tyranny. Sunni's and Saddam loyalists will join the process Dec. 15. Watch. They want to be free.

You're so smart... and you didnt even realize that...

2005-11-21T14:27:00.000-08:00

You're so smart... and you didnt even realize that i was being sarcasting when i said "national hero of iraq."

No you didnt strike a nerve... i'm not that easily affected by bigots.

Glad you realize it's your govt' too... but i'm also glad to see you didnt offer any refute to the fact that you have ill will towards soldiers. Might as well jump on the www.godhatesamerica.com bandwagon.

The entire "hero" refence wasn't meant to be as specific as you'd like to portray it. But as usual... the liberal is twisting things around so as to create a negative reflection of his own cold black heart. "hero" was however meant to reflect the idea that my fellow soldiers and i's loved ones have inside their hearts... the true supporters of the military. Hence an expression such as "god protect my hero" or "my hero doesn't wear a cape he wears camo" etc. etc... which You obviously dont understand.

David: Poor little enlisted guy. Wants so much to ...

2005-11-21T14:18:00.000-08:00

David: Poor little enlisted guy. Wants so much to be a "hero" but has no idea what that word means.
'I hope you dont think people think highly of you because you have a great ability and use it to spout comments of ill will towards us soldiers and our government..."
Ill will towards soldiers and our government? It's my government too, and don't forget for a single moment that you're also not "fighting" for 50% of the population that considers itself liberal.

"Well obviously i meant "national hero of iraq" when i used the word..." No you didn't! Nothing you said or indicated at the time what you "obviously" meant than the words you wrote in the context you wrote them in. You said you'd rather leave Iraq as a hero, not as a cut and run coward. You didn't qualify your comments to mention being "a national hero of Iraq." It seems that not only WILL you leave Iraq a "cut and run coward" (your words, not mine, but you're also a cutting and running from the previous comments you made. LOL!

I'm profoundly grateful that attitudes such as yours weren't prevalent during the American Revolution, or we'd still be British. Why did the sun never set on the British Empire? Because no one would ever trust the British in the dark.

FWIW I mentioned "trailer park" because I'm not the first person who has to resort to profanity during this debate. Seems I might have hit a little close to "home" though. Perhaps I should have attempted a REAL debate with someone obviously blessed with more faculties than you seem capable of. Those who can, LEAD, those who can't, FOLLOW.

Well obviously i meant "national hero of iraq" whe...

2005-11-21T13:59:00.000-08:00

Well obviously i meant "national hero of iraq" when i used the word...

You're right... i should have just said ASSHOLE since i have the balls to use my real name for my posts. I might as well follow through with the entire word. You really shoudln't comment on form since the only way you can build your own confidence is by trying to demean those you're debating with. Trailor park... pathetic... you're on a roll. I hope you dont think people think highly of you because you have a great ability and use it to spout comments of ill will towards us soldiers and our government... no one needs your rhetoric.

The mere fact that you would generalize using the "trailor park" theme... shows that you are probably a bigot in the first place. Good job... A HOLE :)

Rightfielder: When I am interested in studying-up ...

2005-11-21T13:19:00.000-08:00

Rightfielder: When I am interested in studying-up on an issue, Wikipedia isin't the source I would use. Democracy in the U.S. didn't come at the end of a barrel but rather by the will of the people. It ALWAYS must be an internal reaction, not imposed by someone from the outside if it is to succeed. If you disagree please identify ONE democracy/republic in the world that has succeeded by having democracy imposed upon it, preferably by using empirical sources rather than "wikipedia" or "google."
David: If there are indeed "hundreds of thousands" of soldiers who agree with your POV we wouldn't be losing in the first place. Unfortunately the Penatagon and WH screwed this up in the beginning by not following realistic troop estimates. Do you believe that words mean things? If the answer is affirmative then you would have to agree that I am not using your words, "I want to leave a hero, not a cut and run coward" in any other context than your actually meant them. How exactly do you plan to leave a "hero?" I would posit that your service is valuable but if you think that the Iraqis are going to put your collective faces on their next postage stamp you're sadly mistaken. A signals guy, huh? We actually have more in common than you'll ever know. Try not to fall back on your trailer-park roots by calling someone an "a-hole" when debating with them, it's not good form. Perhaps you missed that class at DeVry?

Well said. Please remember there are people back h...

2005-11-21T12:01:00.000-08:00

Well said. Please remember there are people back home who may not be as loud, or as polemic, but still believe in you, your mission, and your honor.

Charlie Mike - when you're done, come home safely and help us rebuild our own democracy.

Semper Fi and may God keep you.

"but on the bright side, you will have a minimum w...

2005-11-21T10:54:00.000-08:00

"but on the bright side, you will have a minimum wage job at Wal-Mart waiting for you when you get back."

LoL... You have to make an attempt at a personal attack because you're a substandard human being. I'm a network switching systems operator... which is in the telecommunications field... i assure you i wont be making minimum wage when i return to the states. Secondly, Wal-Mart doesn't pay minimum wage... they have great benefits, investment opportunities, and flip flop with Exxon as the top fortune 500 corp... So even if i did go to work for them with my Electrical Engineering degree completed... i guess it wouldn't be all that bad :) You're just an a-hole tho with nothing good to speak of. Oh well tho... we dont expect much from you.

Love and Respect.

-David H MacDonell II
US Army Signal Co

Anonymous... isn't that nice... another coward who...

2005-11-21T10:48:00.000-08:00

Anonymous... isn't that nice... another coward who doesn't believe strongly enough in his opinions to have any conviction and put his name behind it.

Where did you discover that the MAJORITY of Iraqi's dont want us here? Did you conduct a door to door poll here in the sand? No probably not... sadly you are basing that off something you heard from someone else who also hasn't been here. I never took an official poll but I have definitely heard plenty of times "America Good... Saddam Ali Baba"

Where Ali Baba in Iraqi vernacular loosely means "theif, or bad person."

Had you taken the time to read my blog on Cut And Run you would see that I am not intending to venerate myself with my use of the word "hero." But i understand why you would think this way... with being so quick to put a negative overtone on everything we (soldiers) do.

While there may be thousands in theater who think the way you do... cynical and hateful towards the military. There are hundreds of thousands of soldiers that think the way I do. I guarantee you're outnumbered on this one.

Anonymous, you must be joking...You wrote.."Well, ...

2005-11-21T06:41:00.000-08:00

Anonymous, you must be joking...
You wrote..

"Well, Matt, if you believe that any form of democracy can truly come at the end of a barrel then you are unintelligent."

Please tell me, what nation has gone from an evil dictator or a king to a democracy withouth the end of a barrel being used?

Surely not America?

According to this link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_democracy

"The end of the First World War was a temporary victory for democracy in Europe, as it was preserved in France and temporarily extended to Germany. However, the Great Depression, prolonged by protectionist policies, helped lead to radical fascist movements in Spain, Italy, eventually culminating in World War II.

World War II was ultimately a victory for Democracy in Western Europe, allowing for representative governments in the former fascist nations that reflected the general will of their citizens. However, Eastern Europe fell under the oppression of Soviet totalitarianism."

Democracy came to America and was preserved in Europe through the barrel of a gun.
It was called the American Revolutionary War, WWI, and WWII.

May want to study up a little before you spout liberal talking points.

SGOBOWS Another Vietname would be for us to cut an...

2005-11-21T05:24:00.000-08:00

SGOBOWS
Another Vietname would be for us to cut and run and leave the country without supplies and no U.S.Troops. Then the country would collapse and the enemies would take over. Do we want another Vietnam? I think not. You guys keep on doing your job. Most of America is behind you---not the liberal barking press. You are great!

Anonymous 6:37Typical disrespectful and condescend...

2005-11-21T05:20:00.000-08:00

Anonymous 6:37

Typical disrespectful and condescending Democratic opinion about our military and the great sacrifices they make to keep our Nation free. They are a disgrace.

Thank you. I enjoyed reading what you had to say. ...

2005-11-20T20:19:00.000-08:00

Thank you. I enjoyed reading what you had to say. and, thank you for your service to our country.

Kevin Clark

OK David but the concept you and others don't seem...

2005-11-20T18:47:00.000-08:00

OK David but the concept you and others don't seem able to grasp is that you WILL leave the country a "cut and run" coward, not a hero. Your words, not mine.
Iraq is not winnable by any stretch of the imagination and even should Zarqawi have been killed today (as reported on American media, et al) it will not make a bit of difference in the overall terror campaign being waged against us because the majority of Iraqis DON'T want us there. It's their civil war, let them fight it.
Don't even attempt to pull the straw-man argument that if I want the "real" picture I need to run down to my recruiters office. #1, it seems many young people know it's not winnable, and thus the armed forces are adjusting their recruiting goals accordingly. #2, you have no idea what I have done and where I have been in the past based upon my political views, (i.e. there and thousands in theater who are like me but do the job they enlisted to do), so if you'd like to pull that rabbit out of a hat, go ahead and try!
BTW, the difference between a REAL hero and someone like you is that a real hero doesn't want or accept the label, they claim they were 'just doing their job.' You think you are someone entitled to hero status because you enlisted and spent a year or more in a desert. It's pathetic...but on the bright side, you will have a minimum wage job at Wal-Mart waiting for you when you get back.
Enjoy.

Soldiers only become upset when you make comments ...

2005-11-20T10:03:00.000-08:00

Soldiers only become upset when you make comments on our progression (or lack there of if you're a liberal..dem) because... well you dont know JACK about what is going on here. Head to your local recruiters office, strap some boots on, hop on a c-130 for your 2-3 week trip into Iraq... spend 12 months IN COUNTRY... THEN... come talk some crap about where we are and where we arent. And yes... i'd gladly do it again if my President called upon me. But of course you wouldn't do that... or you'd be here already.

I'm with Will here when I say i'd like to leave the country a hero and not a cut-n-run coward.

Later folks.

Love and Respect.